Catholic Nun Challenges Church's Stance on Gay Marriage
Jeannine Gramick is heading an initiative to preserve Maryland's marriage equality law.
On the heels of the Vatican's dispute with American nuns, one sister is taking a defiant stand against the Catholic hierarchy's opposition to gay marriage.
Jeannine Gramick, 69, is the main speaker for a Saturday program where Catholics supporting Maryland's marriage equality law discuss ways to prevent the legislation from being repealed on referendum during the November elections. The conference runs from 1 to 4 p.m. at Goucher College's Alumni Hall.
"It's a great shame that the leaders of my church—the bishops—are all out there campaigning against marriage equality," she said. "I want to be proud of my church and that makes me very ashamed."
Gramick is the co-founder of New Ways Ministry, which serves the gay community. She has attracted strong disapproval from Catholic officials.
"No one should be mislead by the claim that New Way Ministry provides an authentic interpretation of Catholic teaching and an authentic Catholic pastoral practice," wrote Cardinal Francis George, former president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, in a 2010 statement. "Their claim to be Catholic only confuses the faithful regarding the authentic teaching and ministry of the Church with respect to persons with a homosexual inclination."
Gramick's Revelation
Growing up in the 1940s and 50s, Gramick described her hometown of Philadelphia as a "Catholic ghetto" that was blindly obedient to church leaders.
"You didn't associate with non-Catholics," she said. "I probably unconsciously thought that being Catholic made you superior."
Gramick, now a resident of Mt. Rainer—a Washington, D.C. suburb— entered the convent at the School Sisters of Notre Dame in Baltimore when she was 18 years old. She said she first heard God's call to become a nun as a young child.
"You had this idea that nuns and priests were really close to God, so if you really loved God, you became a priest or a nun," she said. "Of course, we now know that's bad theology."
Though Gramick was initially content to accept the religious norm, she said the Second Vatican Council—a series of sessions that ran from 1962 to 1965 where church leaders addressed the faith in relation to the modern world—changed her outlook on Catholic conformity.
"The council had urged the nuns and priests to adapt, to be open-minded, to question," she said.
Growing Curiosity
When Gramick first became exposed to gay culture while a doctoral candidate at the University of Pennsylvania in the early 1970s, she indulged her curiosity rather than shy away from a lifestyle the Catholic Church condemns.
At the time, the Episcopal parish at the school was working on outreach efforts to gay students. She asked a pastor if she could serve drinks at a dance for the community.
"It was pure voyeurism," she said with a laugh. "I was curious."
Gramick soon befriended a gay man who joined the Episcopal Church after being rejected by Catholic leaders.
"He told me priests were throwing him out of confession when he told them about his homosexuality," she said.
Shortly afterwards, she became involved in weekly liturgies at her friend's apartment catering to the gay community.
"These people were just normal people," she said. "They were so reverent, so grateful that they could have the sacraments—that there was a priest and a sister who didn't recoil from them, who welcomed them."
'Hachet-Man'
Gramick and ordained priest Robert Nugent founded New Ways Ministry in 1977. The organization has come up against regular criticism from Catholic Church leadership.
She said the now-deceased James Hickey, who was a Washington, D.C. archbishop, and William Lori, then an auxiliary bishop, made several complaints against her and New Ways Ministry to the Vatican. She said Lori was mainly responsible for her congregation's dealings with the church's top leadership.
"I've never said this myself but [Lori] was known around the diocese as Cardinal Hickey's hatchet-man," Gramick said.
Despite multiple attempts, a reporter was unable to receive comment from Lori. Sean Caine, a spokesman for the Archdiocese of Baltimore—where Lori now serves as archbishop—referred the reporter to the 2010 statement from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops denouncing New Ways Ministry.
"New Ways Ministry has no approval or recognition from the Catholic Church and they cannot speak on behalf of the Catholic faithful in the United States," George wrote.
The statement can be read in full on the organization's website.
Caine said that Lori affirmed the statement on Wednesday.
A Tough Fight
After nearly 40 years with the School Sisters, Gramick had to leave the community because of Vatican letters asking the sisters to dismiss her if she continues with the ministry. She then joined the Sisters of Loretto, who also received threats from the church leadership but have not taken action against her.
"I discerned and felt that God was still asking this of me—to continue my work," she said.
With the conservative-minded Lori at the helm of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, however, Gramick is bracing for a tough fight.
"[Lori's] very virulent," she said. "You hate to judge others' motives—you shouldn't. I guess I could applaud him for being an advocate for what he allegedly believes in...I just don't agree."
Church vs. Parishioners
Patrick Wojahn and Dave Kolesar, College Park residents who have been together more than 10 years, are staunch advocates of Gramick's cause.
The couple was legally married in D.C. on January 2011. Prior to that, they participated in an unrecognized religious marriage ceremony in 2005 through Dignity Washington, a church not supported by the Vatican that caters to Catholics and other Christians in the homosexual community.
"I think one thing I discovered growing up Catholic is that the institutional church doesn't necessarily speak for the parishioners," Kolesar said. "I think homosexuality and gay marriage is one area where the church leadership and laity diverge."
A 2011 survey by the Public Religion Research Institute shows that 52 percent of Catholics believe that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry.
Wojahn, a College Park councilman, said it's not the church's place to comment on civil marriages.
"I'm not going to tell the Catholic Church what they should or should not believe," he said. "But our state shouldn't discriminate."
Gramick said she plans to do her best to avoid just that.
"What I believe the Vatican is trying to do is stamp out questioning, to stamp out dissent, to really destroy any kind of thinking that's different," she said.
mary
7:53 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
Knowing and supporting Jeannine from the 70's has been an honor.
I pray with her.
Mary Rock
Bill Howard
11:45 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
She needs to leave the Church and join a left wing cult. She has no business perverting the will of God.
Killi Macklin
3:03 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
Riiiiight, Bill. Because when hundreds of priests molested thousands of young children over the years, that wasn't perverting the will of God. And when they silently turned their eye to the Holocaust, that wasn't perverting the will of God. How about the Crusades, taking countless thousands of lives in the name of God and his will?
Try actually reading the Bible and seeing the horrors it contains. The way it gives a line by line description on how to buy and sell slaves among the other atrocities. Stop cherry picking what you believe in the Bible and do something that's truly good and right, such as worry about the weak, ill and poor. Those are values that don't need a book to recognizes as valiant.
Eleanor
11:29 am on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Listen. You are either Catholic or not. If you do not like the teachings of the CatholicChurch, then get out. Who needs someone like her saying she is Catholic? The Church is NOT a democracy and no one if forcing you to stay. Move on with your own church and your own ideas.
Bill Howard
10:52 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
@ Killi M. The Church was wrong to let the perverts who hurt kids get away with it. The Bishops should have handed them over to law enforcement right away. If you check George Weigel's work on the topic, you will find that the majority of incidents were younger priests with older teen males. It was more about homosexuality than pedafalia. However, all these events were wrong. People are rightly angry with the church for this. However, countless incidents also have occurred in the public schools and there is not an equal call for reforn there. Many of these perverts are protected via the teachers unions.
You also need to read more about what the Pope actually did about the Holocaust and why he was so honored in Israel. (ie you position is a left wing Catholic bashing myth) The Church did far more to save Jews than the racist Franklin Roosevelt who knew what was happenening and did little. He gets a free pass because he was a "progressive" Democrat. FDR also segregated the civil service and refuse to shake the hand of Jesse Owens after he made the USA proud by out running the Nazis.
Roger
10:47 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
Grammick should consider the fact and detail in the online article (Why Maryland Should, Must and Will Ban Gay Marriage in USA Elections 2012" ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/94305520/Why-Maryland-Should-Must-and-Will-Ban-Gay-Marriage-in-USA-Elections-2012 ).
Her naivete on the callousness that "gay advocacy" adopts in furthering its agenda is illustrative of her obvious disconnect with the evidence.
Computer Techy
9:14 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The bible clearly denounces homosexuality. If you religion supports it you are not in line with God's view. No if, ands, or buts, period.
David Taylor
10:55 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
It also denounces eating shrimp and crabs ...Maryland must be one demonic place indeed! Old Bay is the Spice of Temptation.
Tim
3:37 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
Says you. As if you have any idea.
AH
3:23 am on Sunday, June 10, 2012
If God's view of homosexuality is that it's wrong, why worship him? He sounds like an omnipotent bully.
Buck Harmon
10:37 am on Sunday, June 10, 2012
There have always been...and always will be if's,ands & butts...
No gettin around it...
Edward
9:41 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The bible differentiates between those in your faith and those outside. Christians should only judge fellow christians. Now if the Catholic church would worry only about Catholics their biggest issue would be whether to allow male nuns or not. And If you go by scripture the answer is more obvious than whether there should be female nuns.
Jennie Fumarola
9:48 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
Sometimes I am ashamed to be Catholic and that breaks my heart. Narrow views are not conducive with the love we should have in our hearts for all mankind. I applaud Jeannine Gramick for speaking out. Maybe through her efforts Catholics will be seen as kinder and gentler. These narrow views are driving people to other, more accepting religions. We need to regroup before our religion collapses under the weight of our own narrow minded rules. God has shown us love, who are we to condemn his people?
Wallace Benton Threllkeldson
10:26 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
She should leave the church.
FIFA_archived
10:35 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
If god wants to stop gay marriage, then he should do so.
David Taylor
11:14 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
I'm sure that they said the same thing about people who ate meatballs on Friday way back when, but the church changes - and the Bible isn't written in stone, it's up to the men in Rome to dictate the rules, and the rules change... alot.
This lady has more of her religion's "godliness" in her little finger than all the men in dresses wandering the halls in Italy put together.
David Taylor
10:47 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The recently highlighted stories about the church going after the nuns - or at least those who have been thinking and speaking without permission continues... and I'll say it again, I think the nuns have it right. From Health Care to social issues, they take the compassionate stance, whereas the Archdiocese appoints political "hatchet men" to squash dissent (and close local schools, turn a better profit, do some political lobbying...)
Gramick -
"What I believe the Vatican is trying to do is stamp out questioning, to stamp out dissent; to really destroy any kind of thinking that's different," she said.
DCMerkle
11:01 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
I fully support Jeannine Gramick. I left the Catholic church because of the catholic tape that had been run in my mother's head on divorce. She never remarried because the weight of the divorce rested entirely on her shoulders. As if she was the reason why her marriage had failed. Over the years I ran into may obstacles when I wanted my children baptized Catholic. Because my children's father and I weren't married, but living together my children were refused baptism. The Catholic church refuses to recognize the change in the world. I was taught about the sacrament of reconciliation; the act of forgiveness. I realized, that sacrament was only meant for those that were willing to play the game. I'm not into games and until the Church takes off their holier-than-though, rose colored glasses the Church will continue to lose their parishioners.
FIFA_archived
11:23 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
A church that believes contraception should be banned when over 95% of it's members practice contraception, needs to take a long deep look at itself and it's teachings. Just foolish bringing unplanned children into the world. Ridiculous.
Bill Howard
11:49 am on Saturday, June 9, 2012
@ FIFA are you EVER as critical about how the women are treated by Muslim Sharia law?
Try advocating these things in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Deerborne Michigan and see what happens.
FIFA_archived
12:22 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The fact women are treated horribly in other parts of the world, Bill, does not justify how we treat them here. We are less mean than others?
PS - Contraception is not just a woman thing.
Bill Howard
7:06 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
Same thing. Why do so many left wing women ignore the Sharia movement and embrace it as multiculturalism?
Also, the Church does not abuse women. Just because some (male and female) want the church to accept fornication, adultry and other deviations, it is not abuse. They have their beliefs and take the attacks for not condoning it. The cowardly churches will reject scripture and tradition and lose their relevance. If you let people choose new morals they will see no need for God and end up like all other civilizations that collapsed.
FIFA_archived
5:47 am on Monday, June 11, 2012
Bill, you have a hang-up about Muslims and Sharia law. We have treated women in the USA just great over the last 400 years? They just recently got the right to vote.
You say the Church does not abuse women? As long as they do what they are told by men all is fine? You forget Christians used to stone them too. Oh, the Church has changed on some issues now?
Regarding your god, you are right, imaginary. Used as a puppet by almost all religions and cultures to do very evil things.
Killi Macklin
3:06 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
Bill, why don't you put that red herring back in your pocket and actually discuss the subject of the article instead of trying to distract with nonsense.
Anh Dao
2:35 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
Good on you pope Benedict XVI. Thank you for steering the church back to its traditional root. Many saints poured their blood to defend the church. The church is more than 2000 years old, no matter how hard those sad old liberals do, they won't be able to change its great teachings.
David
3:11 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The church already changed its teachings. It has accepted that the Earth spins around the Sun & not the other way around. It has accepted that the Earth isn't the centre of the Universe, just a speck in a tiny inconsequential corner of a galaxy amidst trillions of other such galaxies. It has accepted that the Big Bang ocurred, not creation in 6 days. It has accepted that evolution ocurred, not creation in 6 days or formation out of ribs & dust. It has accepted that mass should be conducted in living languages the laity can understand, not in long-dead Latin that only Cicero, Julius Caesar, Nero or some other dead Roman could. It has accepted that there ought be no mass burnings of people who disagree with you. It has accepted that there ought be no witchcraft trials & persecutions. Accepting gay marriage is just another thing the church will have to do. Just as it needs to accept PAYING restitution & compensation to ALL victims of the pedophile priests the church hid from justice for many, many years, refusing to cooperate with police & grand jury investigations, hiding/destroying evidence & placing pedophile priests out of extradidion reach to avoid prosecution. But mostly NOT PAYING the victims the compensations courts have repeatedly ordered. What we ought be asking ourselves is WHY the church has no $ to pay compensation to the victims of the pedophile priests, but MILLION$ to wage the anti-gay marriage campaign???!!! THAT is a SCANDAL. Prosecute them!
David Taylor
3:51 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The traditional roots of the church also suggest burning witches and stoning disobedient women... maybe it's for the best that the rules are constantly changing after all, eh?
Bill Howard
7:12 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
@ David Actually I remember Jesus rejecting the stoning of women and he never talked of burning witches for he cast out their demons. However, people come along and pervert the faith. One should reject the people and embrace the more loving Lord.
FIFA_archived
4:26 am on Sunday, June 10, 2012
@Bill, you have a great memory.
Sean Tully
2:55 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
As a Roman Catholic I can say that I support (and will vote) for marriage equity. I also support the Sister's right to her opinion, but there is where I break with her. She is a Roman Catholic nun and by agreement with the Church, she has vowed obedience. If she can not live up to that vow, she should leave the Church and work to change it and the law from without.
There is no way the Catholic Church is going to change its stance on homosexuality or gay marriage. How can they? They believe that sex between two people must be open to the natural result of pregnancy. Gay sex can never result in pregnancy so the Catholic Church will never support it. Of course they are wrong, but that is what they believe and always will believe.
David Taylor
3:48 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
Firing nuns who dare to speak their conscience isn't going to help anything - much of the progress that the church has made is due to the nuns, and they are the true heart of the church. The nuns, with their service organizations and working with the poor help balance against the men, with their sex scandals and politics and all that nonsense. It's import that they have a voice, and in this case they are also speaking with the flock - it's important that people have a say in their religion as well.
Rules change over time, the church gets better, but never by submission to authoritarianism, only by bravely speaking out like this sister has done.
p.s. Should married elderly people or couples who are infertile and still have sex together be allowed in the church? I think you are confused about the Vatican rules for when and how people have screw. Also, shrimp and crabs are strictly banned in the Bible, but I bet you eat those... maybe you need to leave the church or put down the Old Bay... just saying. These rules you speak of may not be so immutable after all.
Tim
5:53 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
David: Religion is loaded with hypocrisies.
I agree with Sean's view though. You simply cannot really be Catholic if you believe that God (or insert deity of worship here) created gay people. It's one of several reasons why I left the religion.
FIFA_archived
8:15 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
You are delusional. Have a great day. Left wing women, Sharia law, fornication, adultery, .........
You need serious help.
FIFA_archived
8:16 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
That was @ Bill Howard.
Buzz Beeler
10:41 pm on Saturday, June 9, 2012
The nuns I knew carried big yard sticks and would give you a whack - when needed!
Buck Harmon
10:47 am on Sunday, June 10, 2012
The American Indian Holocaust, known as the “500 year war” and the “World’s Longest Holocaust In The History Of Mankind And Loss Of Human Lives.”
GENOCIDE AND DENYING IT: WHY WE ARE NOT TAUGHT THAT THE NATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA WERE EXTERMINATED
Death Toll: 95,000,000 to 114,000,000
Would god allow christians this kind of authority....religion has been divisive throughout history, people lack an education of the truth by believing the propaganda fed through perceived leaders, be they church or state...
Terry
11:54 am on Sunday, June 10, 2012
I'm Catholic and I may not go to Church any more, but I live my life in a good way. However, I always was felt that God was an equal opportunity type of person. That God was full of love, understanding and forgiveness. I try to be a fair and open minded person. I don't care if two people of the same sex love each other. Why do they want to get married and get involved in all the legalities. I would support a holy union and that they be allowed to collect Social Security, Pensions, and be on their significant others medical insurance. This is a legal matter and not a Church matter. What ever happened to the separation between Church and State? And why are they all tax exempt. If they want to get involved in legislation, then pay taxes so we can have lower taxes. And why did Delegates DeBoy and Kasemeyer vote to give $250,000.00 for a new boiler to the Little Sisters of The Poor ? Maybe they think its a fast ticket heaven.
Computer Techy
9:19 am on Monday, June 11, 2012
This has nothing to do with what the church says in it's dogma. If an individual claims to be a follower of Christ, then you understand the Bible is inspired by God and is written as a guide for us to follow.
If you go to:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:9-10&version=ESV
you can read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV).
Select your translation of the bible as they have many to choose from on this site. If you are a Cristian then you understand that it is in God's infinite wisdom to give us certain principles to live by. The principles on homosexuality are very clear. So if you still choose to follow that path as a professed Christian you will not inherit God's Kingdom. This isn't me judging, this is the Word of God.
If you don't believe in God or are not a Christian, feel free to do what it is you like. But those of us who believe that the bible is inspired by God, we will continue to follow that path. Either way, we all will be judged by God.
Escariot
10:32 am on Monday, June 11, 2012
It really is a simple matter techy. When you join an organization whether it is a sports club, a contry club, or anything you understand that there are rules to follow. If you do not want to follow the rules, then do not join the club. If you show up drunk at an AA meeting, you will be removed because it contradicts the basic tenement of sobriety as a goal of the members. The nun can simply leave the church. She knew the scriptures, and the basic tenements of the catholic church. The church is not going to deny scripture, nor change its views that thousands of years has been constant. To all those gay marriage advocates, tell me how many times the druids of britannica or the pharoahs of egypts presided over gay marriages? Adios sister, don't let the door hit you on the ass as you descend into hell...
Buck Harmon
11:49 am on Monday, June 11, 2012
We should all become Methodists.....it's what ever "method" works...
Robert
10:25 pm on Tuesday, September 18, 2012
Christianity is the reason what's TRULY wrong with the world. You are lied and brainwashed by thousands of years of guilt,shame and self hate. Get a life. I used to be a born again Christian and attempted suicide because of the shame it taught me. No wonder Catholics and Christians have high suicide and depression rates because "GOD" hates them and compells them to hurt themselves. Shame on all you high falutin, I am morally superior and God is on my side people. Just for that a curse is put on you. Karma will get you in the end.
Escariot
12:25 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
I agree Buck. America is beautiful because you have freedom of, and freedom from religion. I have no beef with atheists. i just have a beef with hypocrites that join something knowing the rules, then expect everyone to bend over backward and kiss their ass because they want to be an exception. Examples of this are the nun, you have the muslim that joined rotc then tried to say the uniform regulation impinged on her religious freedom completely disregarding the fact that all religous symbols are prohibited from army uniforms.
Arbutus Town Crier
2:31 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
Love crosses over man made boundaries, Founding Fathers were deists, and believed in Nature, and Reasoning, believing no man has control of their faith, freely to speak and tolerance. One nation under God we all believe of a supreme entity with a few exceptions and we tolerate and respect for individuality. The American Revolution King George 3rd was control by Holy Roman Empire. America is beautiful, the Catholic Church went thru the same as the as the imminents e.g. Irish and many other cultured society. It’s a good read if you’re an American Catholic and want to read about your religious struggle through American history. “Nature has a way of working things out” Nature takes time for gradual transformation and our Founding Fathers knew it. Here is the link http://apadovano.com/church_roman.html
Buck Harmon
10:10 am on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
Our Country originated by exceptions to rules...or should I say rulers...
Arbutus Town Crier
10:38 pm on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
The second letter, Testem Benevolentiae (1899) took direct aim at American Catholic culture. It found American Catholics:
• too eager to accommodate doctrine to modernity (change)
• too willing to think and say whatever they wish and indeed to express these thoughts too readily in print (free speech)
• too individualistic and too willing to rely on the direct influence of the Spirit in their spiritual lives rather than following the "well-known path" laid out by the Church (conscience)
• too enamored of active and practical virtues, to the neglect of passive and contemplative values (pragmatism)
• too dismissive of vows and formal religious life (initiative)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/vatican-asserts-authority-over-feminist-us-nuns-140642763.html
BKey
2:50 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
I am Catholic. And I want the Church to stamp out this nun's dissent. I'm not interested in belonging to a church that treats its proclaimed truths as a suggested lifestyle option that can easily be altered by the whims of fashonable society. As the highly progressive priest LuBloc once put it, "I stop being Catholic if I disagree with the Pope, and can't reconcile or forfeit my belief to his proclamation of truth." Part take in that most American of hobbies, and next Sunday shop for a new church that more comfortably shychronizes your beliefs with your self-esteem.
FIFA_archived
3:00 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
As a good Catholic like I am sure you are, I presume you are against the death penalty?
Killi Macklin
3:12 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
You're right BKey. Why don't you check this link and tell me how many of these things you do that are proclaimed as truths in the Bible: http://www.11points.com/books/11_things_the_bible_bans,_but_you_do_anyway
"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." Timothy 2:9
Hope you don't know any women with jewelry. Thinking about that a minute and consider the most recent Catholic wedding you attended. Wonder if the Bible considers a common wedding dress a "costly garment"
Arbutus Town Crier
4:46 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
Your are FREE to live your life as you like, believe in your Freedom of choice, respect other beliefs, tolerance of others, imagination, free thoughts, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness "inalienable rights" You have every right to believe the way you do and have your own personal opinion, but to impose it on another? Its your FREE choice to freely think or be lead by someone of your choice, respected an tolerated by those whom believe differently. Your choice, your freedom as an American.
Escariot
4:07 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
I wonder why you keep dancing around the fact that historically, as well as legally, the marriage of two rainbow brites is not considered equal to that of a man and a woman. Any nun that thinks otherwise can pony up and find another religion, pronto. No rest for the wickedness in man that causes him to seek satisfication with another man....
Arbutus Town Crier
5:36 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
Don't get me wrong I'm not in favor of it, I have and had Gay , lesbians as friends and the ones I know don't like marriage idea either, but how ones choice is there own. My belief is IF a state (people) vote for it that state can go with it. But not nation wide! people have differences, and when the Federal Government mandates it, that is not representing the people. I'm guessing you did not read the link. Misinformed are blind on what America is! America is not a Christian Nation or bound to a religion that what make us unique than any other country in the world! Religion causes war since the beginning of time. Administration of George Washington and which was ratified in the administration of John Adams reads, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. its not a religion or personal beliefs comments wake up!
Escariot
4:24 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
It is nice to see that Killi hypocrite has posted about cherry picking phrases from the bible, and then duplicates the same. Go hop back on your rainbow Kili, the rest of us on the real world do not need you.
Killi Macklin
8:35 am on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
Reporting here from atop a rainbow (because apparently all people that support gay marriage are in fact gay themselves (and that's a bad thing?)) --- Your described cherry picking is demonstrating the hypocrisy on the end of gay marriage opponents, or do you not understand how argument works. You pull out a single line from the Bible and say "this is the truth. if you don't agree with this, get out of my religion." So I pull out a single line for the Bible and challenge you to see if you also agree with this "truth" because if you don't, you should get out of your own religion.
Of course, you could keep on your blinders and not recognize you fail at both logic, argument, and understanding of the "real world." Or I could head back up on my rainbow and fly around until I spot that bearded old man in the sky that tells you how to live your life.
Buck Harmon
4:43 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
The American Indian Holocaust, known as the “500 year war” and the “World’s Longest Holocaust In The History Of Mankind And Loss Of Human Lives.”
GENOCIDE AND DENYING IT: WHY WE ARE NOT TAUGHT THAT THE NATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA WERE EXTERMINATED
Death Toll: 95,000,000 to 114,000,000
Where were all of the churches as this fact was taking place...??
Buck Harmon
4:45 pm on Monday, June 11, 2012
Talk about perspective...
Mike McAuliffe
6:33 am on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
Escariot hit the nail on the head. I don't understand why any American citizen enjoying the right to practice any religion they choose, or to remove themselves from it altogether, would continue to fight a church on their longstanding positions. Just leave the church. Ms. Grasmick feels duped by the Roman Catholic church, when in fact it was her denial of her gayness in her early life that landed her in it. She has an unhealthy need to be accepted into a group. She's embarrassed. She, like many other gays currently enrolled in a Christian religion, feel a need to belong to mainstream, so force their ways upon what is already established as mainsteam religion. She should form a new religion that makes her comfortable. This is another case in point that there exists a segment of the gay community that is not satisfied with tolerance from other people, but will stop at no means to gain embracement by those unwilling to do give it. Don't join a poker club and force them to play pinochle.
DougW
7:04 am on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
When Christ went to the cross, he did it for EVERYONE. He didn't do it just for the straights, or the RC. John 3:16 says ANYBODY that believes is saved, straight, gay, it does not differentiate. That is the difference between New Testament GRACE and Old Testament LAW. Look at the 6 places that condemn homosexuality and the many more (I can't even count them all) that promote LOVE for one another. Christ never condemned it, but he certainly told us to love one another and live in peace with one another. We're not doing well at that, are we?
Escariot
7:51 am on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
Actually doug, if you read about him and the apostles they talk about laying with other men as being a sin. John 3:16 does not say that gay people are saved. People like you DougW and the catholic nun are the reason why intolerance spreads. I do not discriminate against gays, i do not advocate not hiring them for jobs, i do not beat them up or harrass them, i simply believe that you do not change thousands of years of history to appease one minority group. To crush your argument DougW, please show us all one phrase where the term LOVE includes homosexual behavior in the bible. Ooops, you cannot. Hey, here is a clue, go get together with the nun and start your own unitarian religion. Like Mike stated before your post, do not join a club, organization, or institution well aware of the rules and expect them to change their mantra because of your solo opinion.
DougW
5:26 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
If you read what I said, i never said anyone else was WRONG, I just said what I read. Your arguements are specious. Of course it does not say gay people are saved. Neither does it say that bank robbers, embezzlers, shop lifters or anyone else is, but we know they are. Why is so much energy spent on one single sin, but there are so many others that nobody seems to want to fight about or prevent people from doing. I'm talking about drunkenness, adultery, tax cheats (give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's). Just because I want equal rights for everyone does not mean I condone the behaviour. But I think equal rights means equal rights for all. Too much energy wasted on such a small thing. BTW, Divorce does a BUNCH more damage to the institution of Marriage than gay rights does. No need to reply. Your narrow, closed mind is not worth the investment of my time. I'm not reading anymore. Nobody is going to change their mind, so it's a waste of time to try. And I think you can agree, that goes both ways.
There are also laws against political involvement by non-profits, I'd love to see someone lose their tax exempt status because they tell someone how to vote. Why not argue against that? WRong is wrong!
Escariot
8:53 am on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
As for Killi, it seems that you are rife with ignorance. I already posted that i do not give a rat's ass what religion a person decides to engage in, nor do i care if they abstain and become atheists. It is the hypocrisy of joining a religion, or an organization for that matter knowing the rules and doctrines of said religion or org and then trying to change that doctrine. The nun obviously knew the scripture and dogma, yet she suddenly chooses to go against it. Now Killi, imagine if i went to a lesbian, gay, or transgender meeting and excoriated all of them for being gay and screamed for them to carry out a heterosexual lifestyle. Let's see, i think i would be branded as a bigot, a bully, and intolerant. That is no different than what the nun is doing in regards to the catholic church. Thus, she is a hypocrite and deserves to be branded as one and expelled from the catholic religion. I quite simply do not have the patience nor tolerance to deal with people that expect the world to revolve around them and their opinions like this nun.
FIFA_archived
1:31 pm on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
I never agree with Escariot's need to call people names he doesn't even know. I doubt he behaves this way in public because his employer would dismiss him on the spot.
I believe the majority of Catholics are hypocritical because of death penalties, gay marriage, male priests, hiding pedophiles, wars, contraception, etc. I believe the Church is nuts on many issues.
That said, Escariot is right in one sense, you joined the Club knowing the rules of the road. You may say it is easier to change the rules from within, but the best way is to quit the Club and if they lose too many members, perhaps the Club will change the rules.
Escariot
3:41 pm on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
FIFA, my biggest pet peeve is hypocrisy, and i do call it out whether at work or at the keyboard. Thus i feel no qualms about calling the nun a hypocrite, because her behavior dictates that identification. As far as employment FIFA, is it not obvious by my incorrigible behavior that nobody would ever take a chance with a loose cannon such as myself? That is why i do cancer screenings and not direct patient care. I agree with your views about the church and how it established ratlines to sneak nazis into argentina and other southern american countries, which is quite damning. Instead FIFA, i separate the church and my judgement to that of how an individual behaves and treats me in kind. Based on that, like i posted i do not care what religion or non-religion a person espouses, as long as they are not completely hypocrite in its teachings and behavior. Thus, the nun was the focus of my ire. You are also right on quitting the club because the catholic church has lost millions and parishoners and those that pay tithes due to the handling of the pedophile priest scandal. Maybe FIFA, i should enroll in diversity and sensitivity training.
FIFA_archived
4:05 pm on Tuesday, June 12, 2012
Escariot, I actually appreciate your comment again,it is thoughtful, non-abrasive but still makes your point. Keep up the good work! That is a sincere comment. The nun is probably a very nice lady, just delusional in my opinion. Think twice before joining a male club as a female though. Yes on training!
Arbutus Town Crier
5:51 am on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
"It is my opinion that if the liberties of this country - the United States of America - are destroyed, it will be by the subtlety of the Roman Catholic Jesuit priests, for they are the most crafty, dangerous enemies to civil and religious liberty. They have instigated most of the wars of Europe." - General Lafayette a Roman Catholic, aide to General George Washington (1799)
You can see the representation on this clip. here is a current that was on the news http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2I7JzgcMfo&feature=related you can see the catholic priest represents General Lafayette a Roman Catholic, Vs Catholic Jesuit priests............History repeating itself
Lou Dobbs exposes the Jesuit Order live on CNN
www.youtube.com
Lou Dobbs speaking to Fr. Tom Reese S.J from Georgetown University says "You didnt answer a single question I asked father, but then again YOU'RE A JESUIT, y...
Arbutus Town Crier
6:24 am on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
I am very familiar with the Roman Catholic Church and I don't have any beliefs were as I judge faith but when a military order of the church undermines humanity and church and the the words of Christ WWJD? You are also right on quitting the club because the catholic church has lost millions and parishioners but they are importing them. The church has done great things I'm confused on the leadership the Pope or the Black Pope? Please don't get me wrong but my opinions are inline with FIFA, Escariot
Escariot
7:44 am on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
It really comes down to personal choice and hypocrisy crier. If you do not feel that your personal beliefs are mirrored by a church, an organization, or a club you have the freedom in American to quit the establishment. Establish your own club, your own church, or simply worship in the confines of your home with your scripture, torah, koran, or whatever etc...However, this catholic nun and her actions are no different than my example of joining a lgbt organization and stating at a meeting that they should all live a heterosexual lifestyle instead of what they are doing. Quite frankly, the nun's position is insulting. When has the catholic church showed ambiguity in regards to homosexuality? My philosophy is different crier in that i recognize the individuals that make up the catholic church's charities and non-profits that do numerous good in this world, as well as the parishoners that work to do good in this world. I am also insulted how individuals and groups shout about homophobia and bigotry simple because people like myself believe that marriage was defined before great cultures and civilizations as between a man and a woman. I have no problems with the term civil union and giving them all the same rights as a married couple. The problem is that if the term marriage is applied, then the federal government will try to force different religions to marry them outside of their belief system. This happened with contraception in the healthcare bill.
Arbutus Town Crier
8:08 am on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Well put! and agree were on the same page on marriage!!! I thought that with the healthcare bill just makes them to offer the service and individuals choice?
Chillin
11:12 am on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Arbutus Town Crier, scouring the various Patches, I've noticed that you comment on quite a few stories. That's cool, but you are wearing two hats on your head at the same time. By that statement, I mean that you use one identity (Arbutus Town Crier) for two agendas. Agenda 1 is obviously to bring awareness to problems in your community of Arbutus. You use the same identity to promote agenda no. 2., and that is your personal agenda. A town crier's job is simply to spread court ordered announcements throughout the town without personal interjections, yet your comments are rife with your personal opinion. This leads the other readers to believe that you represent the entire community of Arbutus, and some may even think you have a community following. Most of your comments use the word "I". I don't see the word "we" in many comments of yours. I suggest that you wear one hat at a time and make them very distinguishable. And when you wear the Arbutus Town Crier hat, make sure it represents the majority of your neighborhood. You have been using the power of anonymity irresponsibly. Shame on you, especially because you're someone so beholding of the U.S. Constitution and our Founding Father's philosophies. I do believe all of the Founding Father's signed their real name and the state they represent.
Escariot
2:07 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Shame on You chillin. Do you follow the mailman around your neighborhood to make sure he does not take excessive breaks or takes longer than normal to deliver the mail? You sound quite like a stalker if you are going to all the patches and seeking out one individual to harrass. You sir, have been using the power of anonymity irresponsibly. Shame on you, do do believe all of the founding fathers signed their real name and the state they represent.
Arbutus Town Crier
4:50 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
1- Anonymous participation has always been an important part of the civic debate in this country. It's a tradition that should be respected by both anonymous bloggers and those who write under their real name.
2-The Federalist Papers at the time of publication, the authorship of the articles was a closely guarded secret, though astute observers guessed that Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay were the likely authors. Following Hamilton's death in 1804, a list that he drew up became public; it claimed fully two-thirds of the essays for Hamilton, including some that seemed more likely the work of Madison (Nos. 49-58, 62, and 63). The scholarly detective work of Douglass Adair in 1944 postulated the following assignments of authorship,: Hamilton, Madison and Jay kept up a rapid pace, with at times three or four new essays by Publius appearing in the papers in a week. Garry Wills observes that the pace of production "overwhelmed" any possible response: "Who, given ample time could have answered such a battery of arguments? And no time was given." Hamilton also encouraged the reprinting of the essay in newspapers outside New York State, and indeed they were published in several other states where the ratification debate was taking place.
Chillin
7:57 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Escariot, I don't follow the mailman around. you got the wrong impression. I wasn't scouring the various Patches for Arbutus Town Crier (ATC), but rather following the Arbutus Patch and some of the more interesting links to other Patch stories such as this one. I simply have run into ABT comments along the way. ABT initially caught my attention not because I necessarily agree or disagree with him/ her (I'll use "him" from here on out for simplicity), but simply because I apparently live in the same neighborhood that he lives in (North Arbutus) and I was attracted to his user name hoping to join in some dialogue pertaining to Arbutus's civic matters. The name "Arbutus Town Crier" certainly implies such neighborhood announcements and dialogue would be discussed there. My point to him was simply to make him aware that while rightfully possessing personal views and rightfully expressing them anonymously he may want to assume two separate names in order to separate his personal views from her neighborhood advocacy views. After all ABT does have a blog who's basic mission appears to have been founded on very local problems. I was not "stalking" ABT, but simply following him hoping he lead to a good place.
Arbutus Town Crier
8:39 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Chillin We caught your eye why didn't you give support, comment, Dialog, debate or even support our cause? Thanks for the kind gesture on Northern Arbutus, and thank you for bringing attention to ATC. I see you use an alias. We are a few use alias too but you don't know who they are. Bad Pub is good Pub If you have noticed on my trails I looked over the project in the area for the next 3 years.My personal opinion on the plan leaves us out Catonsville is upgraded raising the value of there homes, while Northern Arbutus gets devalued lowering cost of housing so HUD Sec8 takes over the area. Respectfully The Mail Man BTW we are in Baltimore County and there are subjects in other areas that involve us
Chillin
10:03 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
ATC, Sorry for the multiple typos (ABT in place of ATC)in my last post. Senility is a #$@%^ at the onset. I have not joined in the ATC dialog because I'm not sure where it is going. I enjoy being a bystander for the most part until I see something I'm interested in. Unlike the the nun, I don't join clubs arbitrarily and then request it change it's ways. I'll wait to comment on the ATC blog when I see it focusing more on local issues and less on personal philosophy. But by no means change it to suit me. I should have made my recent comments directed toward ATC on your blog rather then in this article. Sorry for the interruption.
Arbutus Town Crier
11:44 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
Chillin,, I’m glad you apologized and it and received in good will Thank you. Not many do that on blogs. As for Senility is a #$@%^ at the onset, I understand graciously take that in consideration when blogging with you. But ATC is a new format for Northern Arbutus Observation, conversation, and crime watching note taking of suspicious activity working with police. As you see the pictures on the blog Arbutus starts at Beechfield city line You can get more information and give information than a meeting. We have made a change in the area some of us has been here for years and decades WE are tired of the treatment we get Just like WHY is Zip 21229 shaped the way it is 21229 is the weirdest boundaries and we want to be out of a city Zip! Put a question in ATC and converse Give us a try you have a lot to gain and nothing to lose.
Escariot
6:07 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
In one simple paragraph DougW, you just summed up why it is ridiculously easy to win arguments with liberals. Because you espouse a behavior and definition of marriage that goes against the rule of law in our society, everyone is narrow minded. That liberal elitist attitude is what led to the demolition of the democratic majority in 2010. You have literally no tolerance to beliefs and ideals from anyone other than your liberal sycophants. I have posted time and time again that civil unions granting all rights to gay couples as far as social security, pensions, inheritance, property rights, etc i have no qualms with. I do however have a problem with making a definition that would be used by the federal government to force religions to marry those couples. We all witnessed how the Obama administration went back on its word to the Catholic church concerning contraception. As far as you are saying, i should be able to sue my employer because i have a gf, and they do not offer her and myself a complete healthcare package, but separate ones. That according to you is a violation of my civil rights. A wrong is a wrong....and as far as the non-profits and voting goes, why are you silent about how unions take dues money automatically out of paychecks to support politicians that the duespayer may not necessarily agree with???????????????????????
Tim
7:12 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
I have a real problem with any government forcing religious institutions from doing anything that contradicts their beliefs as well.
Now, in my mind, that does NOT include private businesses that want to 'claim' religious reasons for not providing contraception, abortions, or other family management healthcare.
But actual religious institutions, that you could easily demonstrate as such? Absolutely should be exempt from this.
The Government has no more right to tell "The Church" what to do as "The Church" has to dictate public policy.
Arbutus Town Crier
7:18 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
@Escariot,,,So many agree with you! In my family history everyone is has 25 yr to 65 yrs of marriage, even Gays in the family. But to change the meaning of a word that has been in use for thousands of years just to accommodate the life style? I don't think Mr Dan Webster would like changing it. Equal rights are just that, But in the social society of today if they don't use the same word, I see the court houses being filled spending our money for one word. Once the line is crossed there will be abuse of the court system and who pays? I agree with you but the game has been played for over 50 yrs. Extreme far left will work the system which is already bankrupted us. The Extreme far left will not settle to what we agree on. Reality would be nice if what we have been talking about worked, and wish it would. encroachment is the game. once you give in, forget it!...... but I agree with you 100%
Buck Harmon
8:00 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
When you come to a fork in the road...take it..
DougW
10:26 pm on Wednesday, June 13, 2012
It would appear, Mr Escariot, that you have way more time for debate and misreading others comments than I have. I do NOT appreciate you resorting to name calling. I never called myself an elitist. I never said I was intolerant. The one thing I said and you agree with is that we both thing equal rights as far as SS, pensions, etc, YOU said you have no qualms with. That is the sum and substance of my arguement. I never said ANYTHING about businesses being forced to provide servides they don't want to, or suing employers or anything else that you quoted me as saying. You may have me confused with someone else, or you may be reading and hitting the keyboard trigger so fast you are not actually reading the words written, but you are reading what you want to read. Please do NOT reply to me any more, I do not want to debate when you add so many other words to my comments that I did not say. Let's just say that you are a lot smarter than me, and you win because i don't want to play anymore. I just don't have the energy to deal with it or with your libelous twisting and adding to my comments.
And what the devil do union dues have to do with this discussion? I am silent on many social injustices. That does not mean I condone them. Goodbye. no more answers from me, it just gives you more to twist and add words to. Does anyone know how to turn off the email notification of replies?
FIFA_archived
12:11 am on Thursday, June 14, 2012
Block "noreply@patch.com" in your email filter, cleans up your inbox too. It is annoying.
Escariot
7:52 am on Thursday, June 14, 2012
Once again DougW is the poster child of why liberalism is being rebelled against in this country by voters. He calls marriage a civil right, then wonders why I rebutted him with the fact that single people are discriminated against by employers because they are not given the same rights concerning social security, inheritance, etc. An elitist attitude occurs when a person or group feels that their "opinion" is so right that it should override the "rule of law" in a country or society. Thus DougW feels that gays should be married, even though 38 states have voted to preserve marriage. Not one vote in this country has backed gay marriage by its legal voting citizens. Once again where DougW is wrong is in the contraception issue. For montsh upon months we heard democrats like Stupek of Michigan clearly state that the healthcare passed woult not infringe upon the rights of religious groups to be exempt from providing or paying for contraception. Obama made sincere promises to the heads of the Catholic church. What happened Doug? Against the wishes of Joe Biden and other prominent dems Sebellius pushed it through anyway. Thus, my point is that if gay marriage were to become legal in the united states, the Eric Holder justice department would sue churces for discriminatory practices for not marrying gays. Truth to liberals like DougW is the equivalency to a cross to Vlad Dracul.
Tyler Waldman
12:26 pm on Thursday, June 14, 2012
It's pretty easy to scroll past this, but before the comments start on an article you're getting the emails from, you'll see a button that says "Stop Following."
Roger
10:38 pm on Wednesday, June 20, 2012
This was not unexpected! Dr. Joseph Nicolosi in "The Removal of Homosexuality from the Psychiatric Manual" refers to the "apathy and confusion" that gay activists have foisted upon America. Grammick is clearly ... confused!
Peter Sprigg raised concerns in his "The Top Ten Harms of Same-Sex Marriage" ( http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11B30.pdf ). Rather than address the details, the Maherian crowd guffawed, and public policy and legislative procedure was sabotaged on one fateful night in Albany! The matter is now before the courts.
The online article "Is Cuomo Ignoring the Evidence Against Gay Marriage?" ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/54881192/Is-Cuomo-Ignoring-the-Evidence-Against-Gay-Marriage-Updated ) addressed more concerns with ABC, ABC and the New York Times, as the liberal media shows complete and callous disregard for the evidence in obesience to their pro-gay policy. The New York Times should, we note, seriously reconsider its policy of deliberately deleting online comments that disagree with its unofficial pro-gay position!
Homosexuality/Lesbianism and Transgenderism are the only two psycho-sexual/mental disorders so identified that set up as their ultimate and non-negotiable goal the destruction of core creation-structures in the Judeo-Christian and American ethos ... fact, truth, evidence, manhood, womanhood, sex, family, marriage ...!
How significant is this?
Grammick … obviously … does not care!